Trust the Ferret, the Ferret is Wise

So I heard this guy was pushing the "America was founded as a Christian Nation!" thing, by trying to say the Founding Fathers were his variety of Christian, but that wasn't what made me facepalm. No, he was trying (of course) to justify it by talking about the Founding Fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson.

Um.

Has he ever read ANYTHING Thomas Jefferson wrote? (Even leaving aside the Jefferson Bible where he wrote out all the supernatural parts)

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Notes on Virginia, 1782

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear". lletter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Jefferson memorial, from this letter, coming near the end of the third paragraph. The sentence before it is "They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes." The "they" he's referring to is "the clergy", who "hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the U. S."

Hell, Thomas Jefferson was the one who came up with the phrase "Wall of separation of church and state" in this letter.

If he wanted to argue that some of the Founding Fathers were religious, that's fine and dandy, but still wouldn't prove that his religion now should be given legal preferences over others. But Thomas Jefferson? Seriously? Seriously?

Now, I realize the Catholic Church is heavily invested in maintaining the power of traditional hierarchies, since they are one. But this is really goofy. VATICAN CITY (RNS) Nuclear arms proliferation, environmental pollution and economic inequality are threats to world peace -- but so are abortion, birth control and same-sex marriage, Pope Benedict XVI said in a statement released by the Vatican Tuesday (Dec. 11).

Here's the actual document.

I've never understood that argument. How having gay people marry is "violence" toward "the family", instead of, y'know, allowing more kinds of families. I've never understood the Catholic opposition to birth control either, since they say it thwarts God's will, but I'd kinda figure an omnipitent, omniescent God like the Catholic Church says they believe in wouldn't be foiled by some hormones or a little bit of rubber, if you REALLY were supposed to have a kid.

Aside from that, and the fact I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to get at in regards to the section on "moral law" other than as a plea to go back to "traditional norms" of some kind, the rest of it's pretty good. But dude. Gay Marriage, birth control, and abortion are "threats to peace"?

Things of interest or mockery or I just haven't had the time or energy to turn into whole posts:

How to Avoid Colloquial (Informal) Writing

I Hate Your Politics

The End of Cyberspace

The Radical Christian Right is Built on Suburban Despair

The Instititue for Sustainable Communication

Toward Universal Empire: The Dangerous Quest for Absolute Security

The Myth of Starbuck

First Edition Principia Discordia from the JFK library

Thinking With a Word Processor

Americans can forget about the pursuit of happiness and look forward to perpetual war, death, and catastrophe.

I wonder how many, if any of these, people will read. And I expect to write something about most of them at some point. Or at least some of the ideas in them.

Okay, so last year I talked about part of how I don't get monotheism. Though in retrospect, I'm not sure saying "I don't get it" is quite the right way to put it, but it's the easiest and closest thing I can think of. Maybe it just doesn't work for me.

Polytheism doesn't work for me. Yeah, it addresses the problems about all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, since the gods usually are none of the above. So when bad things happen? Well, it's because Loki's a dick. Or because Zeus was busy chasing ladies and not paying attention to who was driving the chariot of the sun. Or something along those lines. There's no Problem of Evil, because well, there's evil gods and good gods and mostly gods in between.

There's a couple problems with it still, for me. Firstly, that well, most of the gods are dicks. That's not really a glowing recommendations. And yeah, some of them could be not dicks, but they'd still be gods. They (in theory) have all this power, power we don't have. It's nearly impossible to have any kind of meaningful relationship with that kind of power differential. Hell, most people just tell their boss at work what they think the boss wants to hear, and a boss doesn't have anywhere near the power a god theoretically would. I think Cohen the Barbarian said it best, in The Last Hero, to paraphrase "Temples and such are just people trying to make friends with the biggest bullies on the playground." Those kinds of gods aren't worth worship, of any kind. And if you try too hard, you just end up with Stockholm Syndrome. That just doesn't work for me. I guess it's slightly ironic that I first learned about how communication is nearly impossible between people in different positions of power through Discordianism, which is nominally a religion. But not very many Discordians are all that reverent to Eris, and I don't think she cares.

But there's another major reason I can't really make polytheism work for me either. It just seems like it makes the world more complicated. Simple isn't always the best or right answer, it's true, but there's no reason to add things that don't need to be there if a simpler explanation works, either. Why add a god in charge of making sure it rains, for example, when rain can be explained just as well through the interaction of things that are already there? Wind, sun, air, water, and thence rain. It doesn't really need an anthropomorphic representation to make it work. So really, I don't care if there is a god of rain or not.

I can see using gods or demons or angels or whatever as metaphors for parts of personalities and stuff, and not literal, that I can see. I'm in no position to say anything bad about that, what with my own little supernatural cast of figments hanging around LJ. But I'm not really sure if that'd count as religion.

I know there's factions that'd take offense at the first point I made way up there. After all, I'm daring to judge gods, and project my own limited human understanding onto them, when their ways are mysterious and beyond our ken. My reaction to that is pretty much just "Yeah, so?" The only understanding I have is my limited human one, so that's the one I have to use. The only other alternative is to not even try and understand or think, and that's not faith, that's just stupid.

I keep thinking there were a couple other points I wanted to make, but this one's been half-written in my head for a month now, so if I remember it later, I'll update this or make another post. This one's waited long enough. Wonder how many people this'll get mad at me.

Okay, so I ran across something today. I knew the Catholic Church doesn't allow women to be priests, but I guess I never really thought about why. I figured it was just another of those things. Leftovers from the Middle Ages. So I found out the official reason. Because Jesus only had guys as disciples. That's pretty weak.

And apparently, there's an underground group of women priests who go around ordaining other women, who say they were ordained originally by some guy deacons and such. There's a story in that idea, I think. Especially since these women priests have made Pope Palpatine excommunicate them, which was something I'd half-thought only happened back in the middle ages. INTRIGUE!

More here and on Google

Somehow, it feels kinda weird to be having so much fun writing about things involving angels and demons and the end of the world, and I haven't even gotten to the big dramatic parts yet.

On the other hand, I think the interpretations I have in here of angels and demons and a bunch of other stuff would probably still have gotten me burned at the stake four hundred years ago, so that's all right.

( The War in Heaven, abridged )

Okay, y'know, I'm cynical about religion in general and the people who claim to be the "best" in specific, but even so, somehow I managed to be surprised when I see things like this from places like the "Traditional Values Coalition".

"The Traditional Values Coalition asked members of Congress to support President Bush's reform of prisoner treatment policies because "this is a war unlike any other we have fought -- the enemy is faceless and deliberately attacks the innocent."

TVC Chairman Rev. Louis P. Sheldon said American military and intelligence experts are hampered by a vague "outrages upon personal dignity" statement in Article Three of the Geneva Convention of 1950.

"We need to clarify this policy for treating detainees," said Rev. Sheldon. "As it stands right now, the military and intelligence experts interrogating these terrorists are in much greater danger than the terrorists. Civil suits against our military personnel are tying their hands as they try to get vital information which will save the lives of our young military people and the innocent."

"Our rules for interrogation need to catch-up with this awful new form of war that is being fought against all of us and the free world. The post -World War II standards do not apply to this new war.

"We must redefine how our lawful society treats those who have nothing but contempt for the law and rely on terrorizing the innocent to accomplish their objectives. The lines must be redrawn and then we must pursue these criminals as quickly and as aggressively as the law permits.

"And since this debate is, at its very core, about preserving the traditional value of prosecuting injustice and protecting the innocent, TVC will score this vote in both the House and the Senate. We encourage all of our supporters and affiliated churches to contact their elected representatives and let them know we support President Bush's efforts to update our methods of interrogating terrorist detainees in order to provide greater protection for our troops and the innocent.""

So... these people, who claim to be representing a God of mercy and justice and stuff are all for torturing the innocent. Um. Dudes. The irony abounds. Along with the stupidity and the hypocrisy.

Borrowed from Obsidian Wings

Sorting Out Life as Muslims and Marines

I don't really have anything to say about this. I just thought it was worth reading.

He's been hanging around for a couple of days now. Not saying anything, just sort of there every so often. Occasionally, a toenail spanged off somewhere. Finally, I decided if he was going to hang around, I'd get something useful out of him.

"I have a question," I announced.

"I know," the buddha said.

"Of course you do. Cosmic one-ness and time being an illusion and all that. So if I didn't ask, would you get a headache?"

"I'd wait. Like you said, time is an illusion, whenever you ask, that would be when you ask."

I pointed at him. "That," I said, "Is complete and utter Mystic Bullshit. Of course whenever I ask will be when I ask. That's not metaphysical wisdom, that's a tautology. But that aside, the question. There's a whole bunch of various vaguely new-agey CDs out there called things like 'Buddha Lounge' or 'Buddha bar' or 'Buddha Laundromat' or so on. Are those all approved and do you guys get any royalties from them?"

"Unfortunately, there wasn't anything like the Trademark Office around back then. And by the time things like that were invented, there were already so many competing claims, there would have been no point. Besides, a buddha's not interested in money or the things of the world."
"I dunno," I said, "that kind of cash could buy a lot of saffron robes. And what if somebody does something stupid and slaps your name on it?"

He shrugged. "What of it? Their stupidity would be of their making, not ours. And it would hardly be the first, nor the last, stupid thing done with or for the name of religion."

"Speaking of things done in the name of religion. There's something I started wondering lately. Why does it seem like so many religions, especially conservative ones, have such small and petty and fragile visions of God?"

He perched across the room, on my awesomely ugly retro bedside table. "I'm not sure if asking you to explain would make anybody any less mad at you, but you'll probably go on anyway."

"Yes, I will. Okay, obviously, this doesn't apply to a lot of religions, mostly some of the stripes of Christianity that get on display here in the US, but. Okay. So God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet, we humans can meddle in God's plans. It just seems like, y'know, if God's all of those things, wouldn't any Plans have a capital P, and be flexible enough to deal with a little meddling? I mean, hell, half the time more interesting things come out of actual interactions than what you planned, you know what I mean? So saying God's Plans can be wrecked by us meddling kids seems kinda weak. Not very Ineffable."

"You might want to investigate philosophers besides Terry Pratchett some time."

"Hush, I'm pontificating. Except I don't have a funky hat like a pontiff. Hang on." I dug around a little and found the Robin Hood hat I'd gotten at the renfaire last year. "There we go. Hat. Now, as I was saying. Yeah, a lot of the stuff I'm thinking is covered in Good Omens, but some of it, actually, I got from C.S. Lewis. Which is why I don't understand the God of the fundies. Any God worthy the name, I'd figure, would care more about what kind of person you are and what you did, rather than if you said the secret words to get out scott free. Of course, that leads to all sorts of fun theological arguments I really don't care about, like if God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful, which wins? Rock, meet object."

"Do I even need to be here? There's things I could be doing."

"Yes. Mad ranting always needs an audience. See, the thing in particular that set me off was sex, which lots of religions seem to hate. But in particular about sex, birth control. The Catholic Church doesn't like birth control, for reasons I've never quite gotten. The Internets tell me it's because Catholics should "always be open to the possibility of pregnancy" and suchlike, and that just sorta baffles me. Okay, so you're telling me, if God wants somebody to get pregnant, God's going to lose to a piece of latex? I don't think making something that thin rip would take any kind of miracleing, you know? It's part of the whole thing I was talking about before. If God made humans, God knows what humans are like, and God would know how people are going to react. And if God knows all that, there doesn't seem to be much room for free will, but that's a whole extra ball of stuff I don't feel like getting into, this was just inspired by the ridiculous idea that an omnipotent God is going to be defeated by a condom."

He perched there quietly for several seconds. "What? Oh, you finished. Part of the problem is you're you. You're not these other people, so you see things through what you've seen and done and think. And a lot of religion ends up being a giant ink-blot, since it's almost by definition about things that the human mind isn't capable of understanding, yes, objection noted, people project themselves onto it, their hopes, their fears, their values, through all sorts of different things. How many different ways do people read any holy book? And you value cleverness, so you figure well, of COURSE, God's going to be clever, if there is a God. Other people look for other things, so those are what they see the most."

"Like the cliched anecdote about blind men and elephants," I said.

"Cliche, but yes. And the other thing you forget is not everyone thinks like you. People don't think all of their values out all the way, to see where they conflict. Not even you, for all that you sit around typing to yourself. Cognitive dissonance isn't a fun feeling."

"Meh," I said, "It's not like I have anything else to be doing."

He tipped gently over onto the bed, without moving otherwise. "So you say, but is there any real excuse for being bored in this world, now?"

I shrugged. "Probably not," I admitted, "But that still doesn't answer my original question."

"Perhaps you should ask the Pope. That might be interesting to see. On the other hand, you made up a world where the plans of the gods can be knocked willy-nilly pretty easily, would you really find the world interesting if things couldn't be hacked?"

He had a point. Which is of course when he got up and left.


Prior:
Stories from the Rabbit Hole
Stories from the Rabbit Hole, Part 2
There's a Buddha on My Bed
A Discussion of Procrastination and Buddhism
Buddhablog
Haven't Seen Him in a While
The Illusion of Pain
Stuff that Binds
The Joy of Scrubdom
More About Failure
Book Reviews with a Buddha
Who's Afraid of a Little Enlightenment?
Special Guest Star Daily Drabble
Conversation

One of the things I've never understood about a lot of brands of Christianity is their references to people as sheep. (I think they may use the same metaphor in other religions, but I don't remember off the top of my head.) Saying people are sheep isn't exactly a compliment. Sheep aren't among the top ten brightest mammals. Or even the top 100, probably. Mostly, they hang about and bleat and work on being fluffier and tastier. It's doesn't seem like a good way to convince people to join you. The shepherd analogy's not as bad, with the looking out for and caring for acts it implies, but there's problems there, too. Most herd animals aren't that bright, and most of the time they're just being raised to be eaten, with other benefits they provide along the way. Which would work fine for, say, Cthulhu, but again doesn't seem like a very good way to convince people God is infinite and loving and caring for them.

I can see uses to the comparisons, if you can make people buy them. Especially for priests or kinds who're "ordained by God." "Just stay home and don't think about it and let us take care of things like good little sheep. Now hold still, this won't hurt a bit. I need a nice wool jacket to protect you, after all." But that doesn't really leave much in it for the sheep, who'd be better off forming a co-op where they could get better prices for their wool and probably build some kind of better sheep-shaver that's more comfortable for the sheep, since they are sheep. And I think I've taken that metaphor far enough to break.

This leads to a larger point that I don't really have time to get into (because I've spent too long grazing and looking fluffy today), about how it's hard to convince people, even if you're right, if what you're saying attacks part of their self-image or things they value, which I'll save for another time. And yes, I know Terry Pratchett did the Sheep/Goats thing much better and more concisely in Small Gods, but if I didn't talk about things just because Terry Pratchett has already said them better, I'd have nothing to say.