Civilization

[forsyth]

If you want to be a civilization, not just "the good guys," the means matter as much as the ends.

A lot of that's because civilization doesn't really have an ends. There are goals, but civilization is an ongoing thing. Which in the end means there are no ends, just means.

Comments

[leticia.livejournal.com]

I could give a couple responses. The first, lazy one, would be "That's deep, but the problem is that our current administration does see civilization as having an End, and that's THEIR end."

But the real response is that you have produced a fallacy - just because there is no Final Winning Condition does not mean that goals - which are ends - do not exist. It's not deep, it's just bullshit.

Which doesnt' change the fact our current administration is still trying to end the world.

[forsythferret.livejournal.com]

But what's the purpose of the goals? To keep things running. To achieve some other goal.

And yes, there are goals, and they're ends to an extent, but the means will keep coming up. Things will keep happening, and so the goal is often less important than how you handle it, because there'll be more things like it to handle than their are completed goals.

[leticia.livejournal.com]

"End poverty" is a goal. It is an end. No, you don't get the 'You Win!' screen and then go to the credits when you accomplish it. But 'ending poverty' is not a means. It's an end. To diminish it to just a tool is stupid.

[forsythferret.livejournal.com]

I'm not diminishing anything as a tool. If anything, I'm trying to get people to pay more attention to the tools, because they're important and used more often than lots of the goals.

The point is, "end poverty" doesn't have an end condition. It's something you need to keep doing all the time. It's a matter of doing things in ways that don't result in poverty.